Report 1831
Report #1831 Skillset: Combat Skill: Stancing Org: Hallifax Status: Submitted Feb 2018 Problem: Stancing has replaced parry as the Combat skill to counter monk attacks, as voted on in report 1752. However, Stancing is significantly better than Parry in a number of ways, resulting in a severe reduction in monk effectiveness at nearly zero cost. In particular 1) while Parry for single limbs was reduced in effectiveness via diminishing returns, stancing a single limb is 100% effective, and 2) While multiple limb Parry is calculated simply based on your numerical spread (for values below 50), Stancing multiple limbs gives you bonus avoidance above the expected value (more than 33% on three limbs, and well above 50% for stance arms and stance legs). In addition, Stancing is made even more powerful when the defender has transcended Combat, and there is also a bonus for transcending Kata. This report seeks to decrease the difference between Stancing above the Parry line, making them more equivalent. 8 R: 0 Solution #1: Reduce the effectiveness of single limb Stancing to match the diminishing returns for Parrying above 50% (as per changelog 1047) 6 R: 1 Solution #2: Remove the bonus avoidance for multiple limb Stancing, instead calculating avoidance by simple and expected values where for avoidance (A) and limbs parried (L) A = 1/L resulting in flat 33% avoidance on three limb stance and 50% on two limb stance including arms and legs. Remove the extraneous bonuses for transcendent Combat and Kata. 8 R: 0 Solution #3: Both Solution 1 and Solution 2 (Solution 1 would result in the equation in Solution 2 changing for value L = 1 to match diminishing returns of parry) Player Comments: ---on 2/14 @ 07:02 sets as pending ---on 2/14 @ 09:30 writes: Can I suggest a solution four element. Give a stancing skill for each individual limb. ---on 2/14 @ 17:32 writes: Some context and details: I did extensive automated testing about stance miss rates, and was surprised by the results. However, I did not know when I began testing about the 5% avoidance bonuses from trans Combat and trans Kata. My miss rate in vitals was around 43%, so it could be that Vitals is 33% +5% + 5%. We know that arms and legs are higher base chance - I believe 60% - which rises to 70% with the two bonuses. (My automated testing showed a miss rate higher than 70%, but I will test again with the new assumptions). It is also possible that stancing a single limb *is* actually subject to diminishing returns, but the diminishment is swamped by the extra 10% in bonuses, making it appear to be 100%. If so, the first half of solution 2 is already in place, but hidden by bonuses the second half of Solution 2 asks to be removed. @Veyils I don't think your Sol4 by itself would help at all - in fact, it would allow easier avoidance of effects like mutilate by allowing the defender to 100% defend the already broken limb. However, you are indirectly making one of the better counter arguments, which is that stance is more limited than parry in how you can spread it around (Another being that stance is harder to change compared to parry, which can be done off bal). I don't think that justifies a 10% bonus on stance arms/legs or 5-10% from trans skills. That solution - in concert with solutions 1 and 2 - would be palatable, subjecting it to DR and removing the additional bonuses. It was mentioned to me privately to point out monk access to prone and clumsiness is inconsistent across specs, and our power move more expensive than warriors, making stance already more powerful even before the extra 5-20% in bonuses. In addition, even beyond the question of whether any spec has useful afflictions outside an easily stanced area, the work required for a monk to have 3 attacks * 5 stances * number of stances (plus different poisons for each incompatible aff stacking strategy) they need to counter is a much h ---on 2/14 @ 17:33 writes: (cont) higher and more complicated bar than warriors face. ---on 2/14 @ 18:43 writes: I agree with the premise of this report in that stancing is infinitely better compared to parrying. I don't think anything should be able to shutdown an offense 100%. I'm leaning more towards 3 as it would fix the problem without requiring additional changes to the other monk skillsets in my opinion. ---on 2/14 @ 22:47 writes: Additional testing on stance arms with trans combat and kata puts the avoidance rate right around 70%, so I expect my earlier test was not a large enough sample size. ---on 2/15 @ 01:10 writes: After talking with Ejderha and Yarith a bit on Envoys to clarify what has been discovered and what is being asked for in this report, I am entirely in favour of Solution 3. The net result would be that stancing in general is slightly less effective and that head/gut/chest stances are in particular MUCH less effective than their current 100% block rate. That is absolutely a necessary change, IMO. Preference 3>1>2>0. ---on 2/15 @ 01:19 writes: Just for anyone who missed it Kalikai confirmed stancing is spread equally on all stances except legs and arms which give 60%/60%. Then on top of this trans combat grants +5% and kata grants +5% as well. Eg vitals stance is 33%/33%/33% base, buffed to 38%/38%/38% for trans combat user and buffed to 43/43/43 for monks. ---on 2/16 @ 04:10 writes: After testing stancing earlier I feel that removal of the Vitals, Upper, Lower, Middle stances is the way to go. Just leave Head, Chest, Gut, Arms, Legs as stanceable locations. This allows a monk to create forms that will force a person to move their stance. There should be an avenue to hemorrhaging in all bodyparts so that everything has a risk, as well and some monks may need to envoy means for that to happen. ---on 2/17 @ 00:23 writes: That's an interesting idea, Danquik. The other thing - which in retrospect I wish I had focused on perhaps - is the damage stancing does to the viability of our already delicate 'instant' kill. Either you have a 38-43% chance to miss on a perfectly executed kill - and for Tessenchi, stance vitals covers ALL of the targetable areas for ThousandCuts - OR we have to stick yet another affliction on top of the 8ish we already need to stick (At least it is on the same balance and counts for Nunchunku) OR our instant kill becomes a 6p instant with a 2p setup, meaning we don't have the power to use for boosting or stance bypass beforehand. New Monks also can't just swing again - that ensures enough cure time that they won't have a deadly count of afflictions. ---on 2/17 @ 05:44 writes: For clarity - Left, Right, Lower, Middle, Upper, Vitals are the stances that should all be removed. Removing those stances forces targets to be more precise in their stancing and allows monks to push stance in the same manner that warriors push parry. ---on 2/20 @ 13:04 writes: I'm abstaining on the three main solutions. Suggestion is adjust stancing to be more like parry in that you can pick specific numbers yourself. Stance head 50/stance gut 20/stance lleg 10. Would prefer this level of control so that we could move it more like parry.